ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:

Greater than 1,500 individuals who participated within the January 6 assault on the Capitol 4 years in the past bought a pardon from President Trump this week. Our subsequent visitor turned down the provide of clemency. Pamela Hemphill is 71 years previous. She served 60 days in jail on a misdemeanor cost for her function within the riot. And when President Trump posted on social media in June of 2023 that her sentence was horrible, she replied, I am not a sufferer of Jan. 6. I pleaded responsible as a result of I used to be responsible. Pamela Hemphill joins us from Boise, Idaho. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

PAMELA HEMPHILL: Oh, nicely, thanks for inviting me.

SHAPIRO: You pleaded responsible to a single misdemeanor cost of parading, demonstrating or picketing within the Capitol constructing. Why did you not desire a pardon from President Trump?

HEMPHILL: Oh, nicely, , it might be a slap within the face to the Capitol law enforcement officials, to the rule of regulation, to our entire nation. I’d be contributing to their false propaganda – that they proceed to gaslight the nation and everybody that it was a peaceable protest. You recognize, I broke the regulation that day – interval, black and white. I am not a sufferer. I am a volunteer. And I do not need to be part of them attempting to rewrite historical past what actually occurred that day. So if I took a pardon, I am saying, yeah, it is OK what I did that day. No, it was not OK.

SHAPIRO: Do you assume anybody must be pardoned for his or her actions on January 6?

HEMPHILL: No. No. Not one – I’ve studied numerous these circumstances. No, in no way.

SHAPIRO: Was it troublesome so that you can come to phrases with the concept that the picture you had on January 6, 2021, was incorrect?

HEMPHILL: Oh, sure. It is like, how was I so naive? Nicely, I see now how I used to be as a result of it is a cult. And also you get gaslighted, they usually deceive you and say there’s this deep state and the DOJ is in opposition to Trump and all this rubbish. And, , you are listening to folks with two Ph.Ds. You do not query them. After which Giuliani, , he was a hero in New York. I imply, why would you query them? Why would you assume they’re mendacity?

SHAPIRO: You’ve got clearly gone from one excessive to the opposite. Do you discover that you’re nonetheless capable of have conversations with individuals who marched alongside you on the day of the riot? Can you discuss to folks on their phrases and attain any sort of a standard understanding or are you simply talking completely different languages at this level?

HEMPHILL: Oh, completely different languages. Oh, no – it doesn’t matter what you say, they normally cannot deal with it, they usually’ll stroll away if I say, hey, let’s sit down. Let me present you one thing that you have not heard. Take heed to this facet of the story – ‘trigger, , that is why we’ve divorce courts ‘trigger there’s at all times two sides of a narrative, proper? I need to hear each side. They do not. They don’t need to hear something that goes up in opposition to Trump, and that is what’s so harmful proper now – no vital considering.

SHAPIRO: And so what’s this second like for you once you served your time behind bars, you had the change on social media that went viral, you bought consideration as the one who folks known as the MAGA Granny, and then you definately had been sort of dwelling your life till this second that every one of those pardons got here down and also you mentioned no, thanks?

HEMPHILL: It has been horrible – the assaults (ph) and what I’ve needed to undergo to maintain my voice on the market as a result of that is my amends – to vary the narrative of January 6. It is so essential that folks have the information. They don’t provide the reality. They provide you propaganda that may be debunked by researchers, court docket information. So their narrative is all for Trump ‘trigger Trump is a legal. He broke the regulation. He has to maintain this narrative going that the DOJ is weaponized in opposition to him and his followers, and we all know that isn’t true. There’s been sufficient proof to show that.

SHAPIRO: Pamela Hemphill, thanks very a lot for talking with us.

HEMPHILL: Oh, thanks very a lot, sir.

SHAPIRO: And we need to remind you that President Trump was discovered responsible of falsifying enterprise information earlier than he took workplace. He was given an unconditional discharge, which implies he didn’t must serve jail time, however the conviction stays on his document.

Copyright © 2025 NPR. All rights reserved. Go to our web site terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for additional data.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This textual content is probably not in its remaining kind and could also be up to date or revised sooner or later. Accuracy and availability might differ. The authoritative document of NPR’s programming is the audio document.